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We HAVE been talking about the possibility and risk of a bad cell and
it's implication on paralleled batteries. I have experience with a
bad cell.<br>
<br>
Steve - It is great that this has worked fine for the first 4 years.
I'd be more concerned about the next 4 or 5 years. Bad cells do happen
and you have no way of easily isolating it.<br>
<br>
Jeff - The 1-2 -off switch allows you to isolate a bad battery. Hard
wiring the alternator and charging system to paralleled batteries with
no switch would allow the bad cell to soak up all of the charging
current while still draining the good battery. You would still have
the starting battery to start the engine, but would be unable to charge
with the alternator because most of its output goes to the failing cell.<br>
<br>
Please don't misunderstand me, I do advocate the benefits of on large
paralleled banks, but only if they are monitored and only paralleled
while you are on board.<br>
<br>
I know, I am probably just a little too risk adverse on the boat:<br>
I don't have a PSS seal because I don't want the risk of a bigger
hole in the boat.<br>
I don't have a shore water pressure hook up for the boat. Too many
boats have sunk at the dock this way.<br>
I don't have a mast furling main. I know yours hasn't jammed in
the first 10 years, what about the second 10?<br>
<br>
Boat systems don't usually fail when they are new, but when they are
old. What happens with the inevitable failure?<br>
<br>
Jeez, I'd better watch out or I will replace Miller as the list
curmudgeon. <span class="moz-smiley-s3"><span> ;-) </span></span><br>
<br>
Gene<br>
<br>
Jeff Cote wrote:
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">For
what’s it worth I too am a systems design engineer (working
in the marine systems industry) and have my house batteries in one
large bank with
a group 27 as dedicated starting battery. Having a larger battery bank
does have
its advantages:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span
style="">-<span
style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">minimizes
the depth of discharge which directly correlates to
battery life (more battery cycles)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span
style="">-<span
style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ability
to handle larger amp draw (e.g. inverter loads)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Notwithstanding
there are some potential problems, such as a bad
cell causing the whole battery bank to fail. As with everything on
boats this
decision is about trade-offs and in my opinion (due to low probability
of a bad
cell) the benefits of a larger single house bank outweigh the battery 1
and 2
approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As
Steve mentions, the ideal situation is to have any battery
bank composed of the same types and model, same age, and same location.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The
1-2-on-off battery switch design is riddled with unintended
complications.
Of which human error is the most common one. For instance: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span
style="">-<span
style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Forgetting
to alternate batteries 1 and 2 regularly and
consequently having either 1 or 2 handle most of the discharge cycles <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span
style="">-<span
style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Leaving
the switch on both and potentially deeply discharging
all batteries without having a battery for engine start-up<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A
better approach is a dedicated house and engine battery. A
switch in this instance is used only in case of emergency for back-up
purposes.
An automatic combiner relay (Blueseas ACR) can be used to have either
battery
charged when a charging voltage is present (e.g. alternator or battery
charger).
Furthermore one should also have the alternator connections bypassing
the
battery switch altogether and directly connected (with appropriate fuse
of
course) to the house bank. This eliminates the possibility of the
battery
switch disconnecting the alternator output current from the battery
therefore
frying the alternator.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The
marine industry is pretty much in agreement on the depth of
discharge rule: A balance between battery life (i.e. # of discharge
cycles) and
the depth of discharge is achieved at 50%.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Anyways…
that my two cents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hope
this helps.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">JC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Steve<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2009 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Catalina 36 Association Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [C36IA] golf cart batteries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><br>
I'm an electrical engineer and I've had 4GC batteries hard wired in
series/parallel for about 4 years now. I think it's the way to go.
It reduces the depth of discharge to prolong the battery life. I
understand the arguments against it but there are many very large
battery banks
that operate this way. The key is you can not mix batteries. You
replace them all at the same time with all the same type. As with any
issue
there are pros and cons. <br>
<br>
Granted, my area is most certainly not lead acid battery technology
(I'm into
digital hardware design and FPGAs - small wires!) but a large
series/parallel
bank (almost 500Ah) with a separate starting battery has worked very
well for
me and I would recommend it.<br>
<br>
Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<hr align="center" size="1" width="100%"></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> Wait
Griswold <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wrgriswold@gmail.com"><wrgriswold@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>To:</b> Catalina 36 Association Mailing List
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:c36list@c36ia.com"><c36list@c36ia.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2009 4:18:27 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [C36IA] golf cart batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;">There
used to be a guy on the list named Norm that argued long and
persuasively against paralleling batteries just for that reason. He
much
preferred alternating days with each bank. I think he was an
electrical
engineer and was very knowledgeable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;">Wait
Griswold</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Jeff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2009 1:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Catalina 36 Association Mailing List'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [C36IA] golf cart batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: blue;">There's
one problem any time your operate with the battery switch
on "ALL", and this applies to both two and four battery
configurations. If you have a bad or weak battery, it will draw down
the good
one(s). In essence, the good battery tries unsuccessfully to charge to
bad one,
and you can end up with all the batteries down.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: blue;">Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: blue;">Con
Brio</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Wait Griswold<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2009 3:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Catalina 36 Association Mailing List'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [C36IA] golf cart batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;">I
think that in theory you will divide the load equally between the
two banks. The batteries will not know if they are wired in parallel
directly or through the switch. I say in theory because the batteries
may
not be exactly equal and I think that could influence the division of
the
load. In saying that I am getting lost in my mind and considering
things
that really don’t matter but are interesting to think about. That
quirk
of mine drives the Admiral crazy. If they are not equal, they will be
close enough not to matter. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;">Remember
that golf cart batteries are true deep cycle batteries and
can be safely drawn further than marine deep cycle batteries that are
not
really deep cycle. I used to know the recommended safe level for GC
batteries but now I am not sure. I think it was 50% or maybe lower (I
seem to vaguely remember 20%); and that can be repeated hundreds of
times.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;">Wait
Griswold</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Bill
Hague<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2009 12:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Catalina 36 Association Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [C36IA] golf cart batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wait and Gene,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Our estimated use is 100amps/day. If I connected
them in
series, 2 to a bank, and chose "all "on the battery selection switch
would I draw 50amps from each bank.I am trying to reduce the percentage
of amps
taken from each bank.. 50 amps from each bank would be about 20% of
capacity from each bank. I don't want to take 100 amps ,40%, from one
of the banks.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bill <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color black; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">-----
Original Message ----- </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wrgriswold@gmail.com"
target="_blank" title="wrgriswold@gmail.com">Wait
Griswold</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:c36list@c36ia.com" target="_blank"
title="c36list@c36ia.com">'Catalina
36 Association Mailing List'</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> Friday,
June 12,
2009 3:15 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> Re:
[C36IA] golf
cart batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;">Bill,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;">I
would wire the new “12V” (actually 2 6 V) batteries just like the
4D’s through the existing switch. Then they can be paralleled just
like
the 4D’s or used individually if necessary, if for example one of the
6V
batteries failed. In rereading your email, maybe that is what you
meant.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;">Wait
Griswold</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: navy;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com">mailto:c36list-bounces@c36ia.com</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Bill
Hague<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 12, 2009 10:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:c36list@c36ia.com">c36list@c36ia.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [C36IA] golf cart batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks to Gene, Bob & Bill for the
suggestions, and
thank you to Gene and Mike for the photo's. I picked up the batteries
this
morning so I can now start measuring for the cables.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">A
few more questions:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1) Did you use 2/0 cables?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2)I had my 4d's connected in parallel to
increase amp hour
capacity. Is there any downside to doing this with the GC, after they
are
connected in series.My goal would be to reduce the percentage of amp
hours
removed in between charges?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bill Miller,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I thought you were still using the 4D's?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="">Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bill<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
C36list mailing list<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:C36list@c36ia.com">C36list@c36ia.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.c36ia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/c36list"
target="_blank">http://www.c36ia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/c36list</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre wrap="">
<hr size="4" width="90%">
_______________________________________________
C36list mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:C36list@c36ia.com">C36list@c36ia.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.c36ia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/c36list">http://www.c36ia.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/c36list</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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